Cathay Pacific adds second Boeing 777 onto Sydney-Hong Kong

By David Flynn , March 9 2015
Cathay Pacific adds second Boeing 777 onto Sydney-Hong Kong

Cathay Pacific will add a second Boeing 777 onto the Sydney-Hong Kong route from October 1 to cater for increased demand, especially for onwards flights to Europe.

The Boeing 777-300ER will slot into Cathay's daily CX100/101 service, replacing the current Airbus A330 and adding 90 more seats to the flight.

"This flight offers the best connectivity into Europe and also a lot of great connections throughout Asia back to Australia" said Nelson Chin, Cathay Pacific's Regional General Manager for South West Pacific, in announcing the new Boeing 777 service at a press briefing in Sydney today.

CX100 leaves Sydney at 3.40pm to reach Hong Kong at 10pm, and then turns around as CX101 to depart Hong Kong shortly before at midnight and arrive into Sydney at 12.15pm.

The airline last year upgraded its CX138/139 service to a daily Boeing 777-300ER, and Chin tells Australian Business Traveller that passenger loads "are going phenomenally well".

The majority of Cathay's Australian passengers fly onwards from Hong Kong, Chin says. "Hong Kong is a stable market for us. The growth in the market is beyond Hong Kong, into Europe and China. It’s very much the connectivity to the other 22 destinations we fly to."

As with the current Boeing 777-300ER, the extra jet would offer only business class, premium economy and economy. Cathay Pacific doesn’t currently fly any first class seats into or our of Australia.

Chin says that Melbourne was also considered for the new Boeing 777 service "and moving forward we see a lot more opportunities with the Boeing 777 or Airbus A350" on that route.

Also read: Cathay Pacific's new business class seat to launch February 2016

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David

David Flynn is the Editor-in-Chief of Executive Traveller and a bit of a travel tragic with a weakness for good coffee, shopping and lychee martinis.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

28 Feb 2014

Total posts 146

Please make Brisbane have better time slots :(

04 Aug 2014

Total posts 39

^

I know Cathay has reached their slots cap in Australia but I really hoped they can try to retime the schedule in and out Brisbane.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

05 Jun 2014

Total posts 165

I wonder if we will be seeing more and more CX 777's on Australian shores as CX's business grows here. 

Also in the second last paragraph third last word is "our" not "out" sorry to be a pain :)

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

Given the flight duration from SYD/MEL to HKG, I don't understand why CX don't fly the 77H (Four Class) on these routes. First is ideal for long haul.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

Up to six, maybe seven hours, First can be less of a need. Longer than that, First really should be on offer.

Their objective was to increase capacity. The current aircraft (3 class 777ER) fits that bill. Why do you think First class should be offered?

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

In case you missed it in my post above "First is ideal for long haul" (greater than 7 hours) because for long journeys the extra comfort First offers actually is quite valuable (i.e. demand exists). CX's 77H has 275 seats including First (6 seats), that's already a quite a boost to the CX 33G (242 seats). And CX has excellent First.

I think anything under 10h, Business with a flat bed is sufficient. But that's my point of view. With a quality airline you should get that individual attention even in Business. First is just decadent. But I don't move in such circles so I don't know (cannot appreciate) the whimsical requirements of that set.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

I do pay to travel First, and having travelled CX J to HKG, I'd certainly pay for First over that. I'd rather travel on Qantas' refurbed A330-300 J than do CX J again (and Qantas' new product will be on the MEL-HKG route soon enough).

From direct experience I can tell you that even with premium airlines there is generally a huge difference in service between First and Business (even on CX).

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

I have to say TheRealBabushka saying First is decadent just because you don't travel in it, smacks of something. Those that only travel in Economy no doubt say the same about those in the Business cabin. Don't wear green tinted glasses on this one, it gets no-one anywhere.

Purely from a functional perspective gippsflyer. Don't read too much into it. But each to their own. On another note, I've just spotted a CX 747 on the tarmac in Melbourne. What is it doing there? CX doesn't fly 747 to Australia do they?

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

As CX offers First over shorter distance routes already, purely from a functional perspective I think it is well open to ask why it does not extend such cabin service to Australia. If this was not the case, you may have had a point (rather than a riff on what just matched up for you).

Can't help you with your sighting on a CX 747. You might have to do some sleuthing on the interwebs for that one lol.

QF

11 Sep 2012

Total posts 21

Was it possible that the CX 747 was a freighter? The run their 744 and 748 freighters to Melbourne.

14 Aug 2014

Total posts 16

The current A330 CX uses for Aus has 251 seats (J39/W21/Y191)

A 4 class 77H has 275 seats (F6/J53/W34/Y182) and actually a reduction in Econ capacity...

Doesn't really make sense for CX to put the 77H on this route given the current configurations, even if it wanted to offer F to SYD.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

More cheap Economy seats! Given that airlines barely make much profit off Y pax (they pay for the fuel and that's about it) that is what really doesn't make sense. Profit comes from premium cabins, not the back of the plane.

07 Oct 2012

Total posts 1245

@gippsflyer You may well be correct regarding the yield for premium cabins over economy. However, I don't think you give CX enough credit, they didn't become a world class airline by not understanding their business and their customers (and their cargo).

Perhaps they have looked at first and decided they can make more money flying a 777 with F class to another market rather than Sydney. Lets not forget, there was a general reduction in premium traffic following the GFC, which has (to my knowledge) not returned to those same levels. 

At the end of the day, it's easy for us all to be airchair airline CEO's, but we should acknowledge that we don't have access to all the information. 

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

It's a bit much to say "we don't have access to all the information" after making a number of unsupported assumptions before that Hutch (risk playing "airchair" CEO with such calls).

What does world class airline actually mean, beyond a fuzzy marketing term. If we are still experiencing the lingering effects of the GFC and "reduction in premium traffic" is CX flying half empty Business cabins (during the GFC corporate travellers got shunted to Premium Economy)? No. A lot of presumptions based on non-existent data.

What is not non-existent is that profit on Y fares (no may be about it) is low, profit yield, if any, is minimum. If you can actually produce hard data that says otherwise (rather than just floating opinions) I will cede your comments merit, otherwise it appears lightweight indeed.

07 Oct 2012

Total posts 1245

Yes, however I think I acknowledged I am making assumptions and don't have access to the whole picture. 

There is not dispute that the premium cabin returns a greater yield Y. 

I am not going to argue the term "world class airline" with you when we are discussing Cathay Pacific. Cathay's performance year after year does not need me to clarify that - and frankly you already know that.

In relation to the  of premium cabins, I base my point on things I read in Aviaiton business maginess, CAPA, ATW etc. If they have it wrong, then so be it. 

I stand by my comment that we don't have all the information. We don't have access to CX's data and that's what they would base where and what they fly XYZ to (or at least you hope they would). Surely you are not of the opinion that CX is so poorly managed that they wouldn't fly First here if they thought they could get the best return on their investment (asset).

Whether you agree with me is irrelvant. We are both making a point based on half a picture. I can acknowledge that. 

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

That's just puffery hutch. Feel free to provide specific reference to these pieces of high quality industry analysis (beyond marketing/advertorial pieces) and I will certainly look at them (but making general vague references to them doesn't help here).

I don't object to different opinions, but I do take irritant at people dressing up personal opinions as substantiated fact without the evidence to do so, particularly when they drop in on analysis of mine to do so. If you had stated your opinion first, I would not have bothered to point out your errors, but as you specifically tried to call my point into question, I'll certainly respond to you under those circumstances.

After all, I've not pretended to speak for CX or held out that I know what it does or why (like an armchair CEO), in my posts. It doesn't worry me that you don't see a need for First, what I find weird is for your need to make me agree with your viewpoint (which on the basis on what you've presented seems very unlikely indeed to happen).

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

Just to prove Hutch I expect nothing more than the least I would hold myself responsible to you, please find IATA data proving that premium class travel delivers magnitude of orders greater revenue than it's actual traffic (for example, the average here was that while premium classes accounted for only 6.5% of the overall traffic, it returned 30.5% of overall revenue). That's not an opinion, that's verfied fact.

IATA

07 Oct 2012

Total posts 1245

For your ease, I copy and pasted my second paragraph of my previous comment:

"There is not dispute that the premium cabin returns a greater yield Y. "

So I am not sure what you are arguing about. I am well aware that premium cabins return a greater yield than economy. Do you like arguing?

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

Really, "you may well be correct" doesn't equal there is no dispute this is the case. It casts doubt that it the case and you could frankly own up to your words and accept that you put forward arguments with little to no evidentiary support and tried to pass them off as more than just armchair CEO opinions. At least I do you the courtesy of providing the evidence in support of any statements I make - you confirm the specious nature yours by still failing to provide anything beyond mere words. Do you like just creating hot air?

07 Oct 2012

Total posts 1245

@Gippsflyer – perhaps not the greatest use of words. But I clarified that in my second post. You are still arguing about it.

As for your other comments. Respectfully, do not tell me what that things I say “doesn't help here”. Unless you become the editor of this website, that is not your role.

I am entitled to my position. You can consider it puffery all you want. That is your right. I am not going to spend my time, researching and going through the mountains of aviation material out there to win a victory with some guy online. It is a hollow victory and pointless. You will probably consider this a victory and as far as I am concerned you can take the win if it makes you feel better.

You have stated “dressing up personal opinions as substantiated fact without the evidence to do so”. Well, several times throughout my comments, I clearly stated that “We are both making a point based on half a picture. I can acknowledge that”,” Yes, however I think I acknowledged I am making assumptions and don't have access to the whole picture.”, “ it's easy for us all to be airchair airline CEO's, we should acknowledge that we don't have access to all the information”.

I have not expressed my views as “substantiated facts” and I have clearly outlined I am making assumptions.

Anyway, good luck to you. The viewers can see how you are responding to everyone else’s opinions on this post. I hope you show people in the 'real world' more respect.. I’ll leave it at that.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

You are entitled to an opinion Hutch just as much as I am. However an opinion is different from a fact, and when you call a fact given into question (particularly after another person's post citing that fact) you are not entitled to a free pass from scrutiny. It's not like I just came across a posting of yours, and made a point of making debate on the facts within in, on opinion alone. I didn't ask for your input, you gave it on your own initiative, and when you clearly weren't sure of the probity of your statements, I'd say that's not a very wise thing to do. Have you, after all, added anything of value? 

Your comments in your first post were all about calling my post into question, not qualifying your statements. When challenged, it's only then you start backsliding while still trying to justify your point of view. Even now, when it should be clear to you that I don't find any merit in your opinions, you still try to obtain validation. 

If you want respect Hutch, it's pretty much understood universally, the way to go around it is not to be disrespectful first. I certainly haven't resorted to poisoning the well like you just have. Its perfectly fine to play the ball, not the man (because then it's no longer a debate but a personal attack). I've certainly called the quality of your debate justifiably into question (because you opened that path yourself), I see little benefit in calling you names however even if you are rude at times.

07 Oct 2012

Total posts 1245

I will never ever make the mistake of making general comments on your comment ever again... it is not worth headache. I apologise if I come across rude, but in fairness, I don't think you can lecture me on that.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

I'm always happy to talk to with you hutch and to your credit in your second last post in this thread you do admit it was not the greatest use of your words in your first post (if you had said as much in your second post, I would have left it as that). I think it is unhelpful to think about making responses as victories (as you refer to in your second last post here, in the third para), as there is nothing to be won or lost. It's just about sharing information (facts) or asking questions to obtain information. And be assured I haven't taken anything you've said personally, I've only viewed this on the quality of the information not on the persons behind them. Enjoy your afternoon Hutch.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

Regarding profit on CX economy, while not exactly quantative I did come across this snippet on AirReview (which has the best seat maps ever, although its a bit dated now) which I read a while back and though gave a little insight on Y contribution to profit vs J/F:

With all that, it can come as a surprise to find that some [economy] passengers - the ones that use the airline regularly - call the airline Cathay Pathetic. In part this is because the airline loves those up the front rather than economy passengers: and no wonder. The Chief Executive has recently complained that it takes 20 economy passengers to pay the profits of one up the pointy end. [Emphasis added] 

17 Nov 2011

Total posts 24

If economy seats are so useless, why doesn't Cathay remove all the economy seats and fly premium-only flights for "better yields and more profit"?  Even though most of us aren't exactly fond of them, they do serve a purpose.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

For the same reason why even hardcore LCCs offer premium class seats - all one class aircraft (except for very low demand routes) don't work and no-one has suggested that's that case. There does have to be a balanced mix however - too much Economy and you end up with very low or non-existent yield, too many premium seats and you exceed demand. 

CX has a very small First cabin (only six seats), that's over half to a fourth smaller than the First cabins currently flying out of Australia by Qantas or Singapore and certainly not greater than any existing First cabin currently sold for Australian departures (clearly demand is there, airlines don't run unprofitable premium cabins, yet plenty of airlines continue to supply First cabins for Australian market - it's not like airlines can't change seating layouts when needed given a year or two).

After all, we are not seeing CX pull out all it's premium seats to go to an all economy offering are we. So why would we see the other extreme?

03 Nov 2014

Total posts 91

I still don't understand why QF won't fly via Asia to Europe...I now fly CX as I don't want to fly via Dubai. Obviously lots of demand as CX are killing it.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

Hi Greg84, it's because while QF and CX are both in OneWorld they are not sharing good friendship. In fact it's a rather a quiet hostility. Maybe with a change of key personnel, something might happen in the future, but I wouldn't count on it. Qantas has even bypassed CX to do codeshares with mainland Chinese airlines just to thumb it's nose at CX.

I agree that there are some merits to such a hook-up though. 

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

26 May 2014

Total posts 416

Something to do with Jetstar Hong Kong perhaps?

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

The friction did exist before then, but that was certainly grit being ground into the wound (and CX did pay them back by making sure start up is like crawling over broken glass). 

09 Mar 2015

Total posts 2

Alot of CX planning and research go into why where and how...They have done their research and results show It will not be viable.

 Yes the cabin will be full but with 1.6 seats will be sold as Revenue. Remaining will be redemption/reward tickets, upgrades etc etc.

CX are happy enough with the Flagship Business Class product flatbeds which are on all Australia flights.

In terms of Front end Product, Consistency CX wins hand down. (apart from the 340s which are been retired) Likes of SQ/EK and Others its a lucky door prize on which J class product seat you"ll be flying on. 

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

Congratulations on making your first AusBT post Nate82. Strange presumptions though - like 1.6 seats sold (how does that work?) and the ability to foresee all future loadings and all highly protected internal CX market research to say things like "results show It will not be viable". Bum pluck or do you have mutant powers lol.

09 Mar 2015

Total posts 2

Gippsflyer maybe because im answering your earlier post about why Cathay dont send the 4 class 77H downunder. Understand now?

Its my job to know. Theres far more but yes as you said Internal CX so ill stop there. 

Thanks

 

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

I would think anyone working for CX in Operations or Marketing would have better English language skills than demonstrated in your posts, or at least understand you can't buy a fraction of a First class seat :-)

12 Feb 2014

Total posts 229

I think Nate was talking in averages. So that if there were say 6 first class seats available on a flight, on average only 1.6 would be sold to full fare paying passengers and the rest are taken up by points upgrades and redemptions (ie. on any one flight there would only be one or two passengers paying top dollar). In other words it isn't a product that was directly driving revenue for the airline.

Judging by the capacity CX offers, you'd have to say no First offering isn't hurting their business.

Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer

10 Jan 2013

Total posts 715

Given we haven't had CX First out of Australia for years any such numbers on future sales would seem little better than data absent assumptions. CX First only has six seats, and given CX can readily control upgrade/redemption to First cabin, it's a moot argument in my view.

After all, if there was no demand (or insufficient demand) for First out of Australia, EK, SQ, QF, etc wouldn't be offering First cabins on their services. Certainly no hard evidence has been offered to show there is no First market here in Australia, other than the questionable word of someone pretending they are a high ranked CX employee (which given the only joined AusBT last night, is dubious indeed).

Cathay Pacific - Asia Miles

25 Apr 2013

Total posts 544

Hmmm, Nate.

"apart from the 340s which are been retired"

Those pathetic pig-toenail economy class seats and coffins with business class service still chug all the way to Auckland.

For anybody who doesnt understand - First Class would be a very, very smart step for Cathay. It is not simply the demand from Hong Kong to Sydney, but we have to account for the fact that there are connecting First Class flights to London, Paris, Milano, Frankfurt, Zurich, Dusseldorf, and obviously to the US Destinations. Many of those passengers want to fly First Class all the way if the pay that amount of money, so will choose Emirates, Etihad, Singapore Airlines, or Thai Airways.

04 Nov 2012

Total posts 216

QF left CNS/HKG direct years ago, since then CX have been laughing all the way to the bank with mostly full flights. The way its going maybe one day we'll see the 777 on this route.

One last thing Y is usually around $1400 return for the 7 hour flight and J close to $6K.

07 Oct 2012

Total posts 1245

Not comparing Apples with Apples there. How many passengers originating in HKG are travelling to CNS and vice-versa. CX has a massive hub to distribute passengers to, if QF flew to HKG from CNS they would need to fill the plane with O&D passengers, not an easy task.

AJW
AJW

16 Nov 2011

Total posts 529

Indeed, even says so in the article above

"The majority of Cathay's Australian passengers fly onwards from Hong Kong"

Something that many just cannot get a grip on when they talk about why airline XYZ flies AUS to their hub multiple times a day and Qantas can only justify an A330 or cannot justify flights at all (PER-SIN PER-HKG anyone)

04 Feb 2015

Total posts 4

"...first class seats into or our of Australia."

I think you mean ..."into or out of Australia" :)

 

I still don't understand why they don't send their 4-classed 777s. They could make business class passengers with high status (Marco Polo Diamond etc.) upgrade to first class an still receive business class service, but in first class. Qantas is doing that with its A380s to Hong Kong, why can't Cathay?


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