Compulsory Covid-19 Vaccinations

59 replies

GoRobin

Member since 07 May 2020

Total posts 34

@TheFreqFlyer...I really commend you for your patience in trying to argue common sense to some complete imbeciles who just lie outright to justify their own insecurities and fears. I can no longer do it. Those who want to take experimental agents should just go ahead and do so. The offer of such agents to me is declined and that jab offer can be made available to a more willing subject. Go forth and be saved!

rabbieb

Member since 31 Dec 2017

Total posts 6

Going back to my OP.....

I still see no published research for evidence of transmission blocking by any of the approved vaccines or candidates in development. If Big Pharma has the evidence then - curiously - they are doing a great job keeping it quiet. Countries like Israel with well-progressed vaccination programs have provided no evidence. The UK's R Number today is c.0.7-0.9 - fantastic news - but it's their lockdown restrictions getting them there, not their vaccination program. Sure, some experts are expressing confidence we'll eventually get evidence for transmission blocking. But they don't tell us why they are confident, hardly inspiring. Other experts are being rather more open and honest in stating clearly - there is no evidence. None.

So back to Qantas and their justification for a no-jab, no-fly edict. Protecting aircrew? It's for Qantas and their employees to decide if workforce vaccination will be compulsory. Protecting passengers? That has to be a decision for individual passengers. If you think you are in a vulnerable group, or are just worried about the medical risk, then don't fly until you have been vaccinated.

The rest of us might want to know what medical outcome is achieved by our compulsory vaccination? What's the prize?

patrickk

Qantas

Member since 19 Apr 2012

Total posts 565

Originally Posted by rabbieb

Going back to my OP.....

I still see no published research for evidence of transmission blocking by any of the approved vaccines or candidates in development. If Big Pharma has the evidence then - curiously - they are doing a great job keeping it quiet. Countries like Israel with well-progressed vaccination programs have provided no evidence. The UK's R Number today is c.0.7-0.9 - fantastic news - but it's their lockdown restrictions getting them there, not their vaccination program. Sure, some experts are expressing confidence we'll eventually get evidence for transmission blocking. But they don't tell us why they are confident, hardly inspiring. Other experts are being rather more open and honest in stating clearly - there is no evidence. None.

So back to Qantas and their justification for a no-jab, no-fly edict. Protecting aircrew? It's for Qantas and their employees to decide if workforce vaccination will be compulsory. Protecting passengers? That has to be a decision for individual passengers. If you think you are in a vulnerable group, or are just worried about the medical risk, then don't fly until you have been vaccinated.

The rest of us might want to know what medical outcome is achieved by our compulsory vaccination? What's the prize?

Rabbie as many have said transmission is not blocked but reduced simply by lower viral load through reduced infection levels in the vaccinated person, that is why we will still have to be careful until most are vaccinated, so then it becomes like a common cold. There are mild(we) symptoms so people are kept out of hospitals. The ‘prize’ or medical outcome, in your terms is getting less sick, something I will certainly take.

patrickk

Qantas

Member since 19 Apr 2012

Total posts 565

Originally Posted by rabbieb

Going back to my OP.....

I still see no published research for evidence of transmission blocking by any of the approved vaccines or candidates in development. If Big Pharma has the evidence then - curiously - they are doing a great job keeping it quiet. Countries like Israel with well-progressed vaccination programs have provided no evidence. The UK's R Number today is c.0.7-0.9 - fantastic news - but it's their lockdown restrictions getting them there, not their vaccination program. Sure, some experts are expressing confidence we'll eventually get evidence for transmission blocking. But they don't tell us why they are confident, hardly inspiring. Other experts are being rather more open and honest in stating clearly - there is no evidence. None.

So back to Qantas and their justification for a no-jab, no-fly edict. Protecting aircrew? It's for Qantas and their employees to decide if workforce vaccination will be compulsory. Protecting passengers? That has to be a decision for individual passengers. If you think you are in a vulnerable group, or are just worried about the medical risk, then don't fly until you have been vaccinated.

The rest of us might want to know what medical outcome is achieved by our compulsory vaccination? What's the prize?

Rabbie the data coming out of Israel (too early to be peer reviewed) with most vaccinated at least once has shown a marked drop in cases. A little more work for a definitive causal effect, but it is more than probably there.

tripleplatinum2 Banned

Member since 27 Dec 2020

Total posts 22

Originally Posted by TheFreqFlyer

Patrick, I'm looking at the mainstream data such as is available on Worldometers that is compiled by John Hopkins I believe. 99.6% of global "patients" are in mild condition. This simply isn't the Spanish flu, the plague or even Ebola, which seems to have disappeared off the face of the Earth, because all we're hearing these days is "corona virus 19" and nothing else, as if there were only one virus capable of causing disease at any one time. Yet at the time (2015), Ebola was being touted as this virus with an incredibly high mortality rate but there were no quarantines or economy destroying lockdowns and border closures.

This is nothing new. In the past, a certain percentage of flu patients would also suffer ongoing conditions yet no one was hysterical about this or called for closed borders. Why not? Well, because at the time there was no agenda like there is now.

The curve is already starting to flatten - since around a month case numbers and deaths are falling. At this rate, new cases and deaths will be close to zero in around half a year from now.

So the only rational conclusion here is to simply say "false alarm" and let's get back to business the way it was before early 2020.

Although I'm reluctant to wait, I can hold out for another 6-9 months before travelling overseas, but would like to see normal travel resume by the end of the year, without any new travel requirements that didn't exist before March 2020. Such requirements are unjustified by science and are political in nature anyway. We all travelled in mass in 2000, 2003, 2005, 2010, 2015, 2019, some of these were "pandemic" years, the rest were normal. Nothing happened. There was no unusual morbidity or mortality by allowing travel to continue unabated during those years.

So there's no reason to introduce vaccine requirements or anything else now, unless you're trying to discourage travel, which is clearly what all this is about.

Last editedby TheFreqFlyer at Feb 07, 2021, 01:48 PM.
That's some high level paranoia there, isn't it a strange coincidence it's always the most uneducated people (footyheads wives, brainwashed qanon people) thinking they know more than doctors.

tripleplatinum2 Banned

Member since 27 Dec 2020

Total posts 22

Originally Posted by GoRobin

@TheFreqFlyer...I really commend you for your patience in trying to argue common sense to some complete imbeciles who just lie outright to justify their own insecurities and fears. I can no longer do it. Those who want to take experimental agents should just go ahead and do so. The offer of such agents to me is declined and that jab offer can be made available to a more willing subject. Go forth and be saved!

Experimental agents? It's called clinical trials. Your ignorance is almost as pathetic as your arrogance. Isn't it a strange coincidence it's always the most uneducated people who are antivaxxers?

TheFreqFlyer

Member since 05 Oct 2017

Total posts 21

tripleplatinum2, speaking of calling the kettle black, it's your crass arrogance and paranoia that is showing through. I'm the rational headed one, but being rational is now being paranoid? Of course, a propagandist with an agenda like you likes twisting the meaning of words in typical Orwellian fashion, but ultimately, intelligent people like me can see through your tired lies. What are you going to say next "oh but Wakefield is a fraud?" People like you are incredibly predictable and have very limited intelligence.

tripleplatinum2 Banned

Member since 27 Dec 2020

Total posts 22

Originally Posted by TheFreqFlyer

tripleplatinum2, speaking of calling the kettle black, it's your crass arrogance and paranoia that is showing through. I'm the rational headed one, but being rational is now being paranoid? Of course, a propagandist with an agenda like you likes twisting the meaning of words in typical Orwellian fashion, but ultimately, intelligent people like me can see through your tired lies. What are you going to say next "oh but Wakefield is a fraud?" People like you are incredibly predictable and have very limited intelligence.

Paranoia? Coming from someone believing anti vax conspiracy theories? Wow, just wow. You are all truly are indistinguishable from satire at this point!

GoRobin

Member since 07 May 2020

Total posts 34

The phrase of the month is that "it's a coincidence". You can apply this to any discussion around viruses and vaccinations if you can't prove it, and it suits your argument.

patrickk

Qantas

Member since 19 Apr 2012

Total posts 565

I’m not sure what the coincidence refers to but if there are 20 cases of blood clots in 30 million doses then that certainly doesn’t suggest a cause so at best a coincidence. It isn’t about suiting arguments but a sensible statistical observation. Also not sure the ‘experimental agent’ argument can hold up after 30million doses and plummeting hospital admissions.

GoRobin

Member since 07 May 2020

Total posts 34

patrickk...I would suggest that the decline in covid mortality in the UK is just a coincidence and has little to do with vaccinations. It has much more to do with the fact that everyone in the UK has been locked up for several months. So a no brainer conclusion or just coincidence. Even the UK government is finally admitting publicly what they already know is that the vaccination will not prevent you from getting infected or spreading. They are also mentioning that they do not have confidence that Astrazeneca experimental agent is even effective against the mutants so they probably won't let anyone leave the UK this summer. Let's see. And it is an experimental agent anyway because the phase 3 trial has only just begun. After 3 or 4 years of solid safety data will anybody be able to call it as having long term safety. But if you feel good about it then go for it. Just remember that if you by some remote chance suffer an adverse reaction or death, you have nobody to sue. The government has given these pharma companies exemption from liability. I wonder why? So you will be on your own.

TheFreqFlyer

Member since 05 Oct 2017

Total posts 21

Excellent point GoRobin. Another thing to keep in mind, aside from the obvious risks in rushing to get an emergency use vaccine, is the likelihood it won't even be accepted for travel (like they've been claiming relentlessly in the media) if you've had it more than 3 months ago. Several countries are saying they will reduce the quarantine time or allow you to skip quarantine, if you received 2 doses of a coronavirus vaccine between 14 days and no later than 3 months ago. So if someone got theirs 4 months ago, too bad, you have to get vaccinated again, further exacerbating the health risks. Based on this, it almost looks like one would need to get vaccinated before every overseas trip! And this is no hyperbole, as one prominent doctor actually suggested this recently.

As you have correctly mentioned and I agree with, I believe that once travel resumes normally, these vaccine passports won't work. There are just too many variables and "what ifs" as well as political factors like some countries, that don't have a good relationship with Russia and China, not wanting to accept vaccines from these countries and possibly countries not on a good footing with America/Europe/the West, not accepting western vaccines, yet there may be no alternative vaccines available as most countries only have access to stock from 1-3 manufacturers not all of them.

The way I see it is all of this is a marketing strategy to get as many people vaccinated as possible.

Once restrictions are lifted, it may initially be vaccine OR a test, OR a medical exemption, which governments will be obligated to honour. I believe it won't take too long after that for all requirements related to testing or vaccination to be lifted.

TheFreqFlyer

Member since 05 Oct 2017

Total posts 21

Originally Posted by tripleplatinum2

Originally Posted by TheFreqFlyer

tripleplatinum2, speaking of calling the kettle black, it's your crass arrogance and paranoia that is showing through. I'm the rational headed one, but being rational is now being paranoid? Of course, a propagandist with an agenda like you likes twisting the meaning of words in typical Orwellian fashion, but ultimately, intelligent people like me can see through your tired lies. What are you going to say next "oh but Wakefield is a fraud?" People like you are incredibly predictable and have very limited intelligence.

Paranoia? Coming from someone believing anti vax conspiracy theories? Wow, just wow. You are all truly are indistinguishable from satire at this point!

Whatever dude. Ad hominems and cheap shots only make you look more ridiculous. A career in television might be better suited to you.

patrickk

Qantas

Member since 19 Apr 2012

Total posts 565

Originally Posted by GoRobin

patrickk...I would suggest that the decline in covid mortality in the UK is just a coincidence and has little to do with vaccinations. It has much more to do with the fact that everyone in the UK has been locked up for several months. So a no brainer conclusion or just coincidence. Even the UK government is finally admitting publicly what they already know is that the vaccination will not prevent you from getting infected or spreading. They are also mentioning that they do not have confidence that Astrazeneca experimental agent is even effective against the mutants so they probably won't let anyone leave the UK this summer. Let's see. And it is an experimental agent anyway because the phase 3 trial has only just begun. After 3 or 4 years of solid safety data will anybody be able to call it as having long term safety. But if you feel good about it then go for it. Just remember that if you by some remote chance suffer an adverse reaction or death, you have nobody to sue. The government has given these pharma companies exemption from liability. I wonder why? So you will be on your own.

GoRobin the rate of infections in the UK is fairly stable as indicated by recent data while hospitalisations have plummeted which is exactly what the vaccine was designed to do keep people out of hospitals and deaths. The vaccine was never designed to stop people getting infected but reducing the rate of infections and the severity; once the severity is down to heavy cold which is where it is heading then we will be travelling again. The unknown issue is long COVID but so far it seems to be from severe cases. I suspect three months of data from hundreds of millions will be more than enough. Not sure which mutations you are referring to but it seems to be effective against the common ones. It seems Australians will be travelling to New Zealand first without vaccines or quarantine, Singapore with vaccination and no quarantine from the middle of the year and elsewhere with vaccinations and reduced or at home quarantine later in the year when most are vaccinated or have access to it. Not sure what Boris is planning for the UK.

GoRobin

Member since 07 May 2020

Total posts 34

It's all a coincidence patrickk. If you "lockup" the population as in Australia and NZ and eliminate the virus, there is no need for vaccination. If you keep the population locked away and vaccinate them, the result is the same. There has been so much hot air about bubbles for so long it is all just a joke. Keep dreaming.

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