In the UK they also report "excess deaths" - the number of deaths above an average of the last 5 years. And that figure is above the numbers quoted as due to COVID-19. I don't think any other country does, but that would indicate under rather than over reporting.
Yes, we should be scared of the virus--just look at the numbers of infections and deaths in the UK and the US, and yes I know that they have bigger populations than we have.
Rita, what are you actually scared of? The average age of death from the virus is older than the average age of death in this country. Headlines are affecting how you view this. 99+% of people who get the virus shrug it off but news agencies like to report the worst of everything which impacts your thinking. You know, life is hard, none gets out alive. Sure, take some simple precautions but don’t cower away thinking the virus will disappear even through vaccination.
The media is reporting the facts. In most countries that actual death toll has underreported deaths linked to Covid-19. If the international borders weren't closed we would have the same mess that they have in the US. Are you seriously saying that what is happening in the US is OK? More Americas killed by Covid-19 in under 12 months than died in World War 2?
The reported deaths from COVID have been over reported not under reported. Look at the deaths in Norway related to taking the vaccine. These people were going to die anyway. They did not die because of the vaccine just as the majority of COVID ‘deaths’ were people who died with it not because of it.
That is absolute and complete rubbish. The analysis of excess deaths shows that most countries are under reporting Covid-19 deaths in the order of 20 to 30% in the US and UK. Australia stands out as one of the very few countries that has actually had a reduction in excess deaths whereby actions taken to prevent Covid deaths has reduced other illnesses. UK official Covid death toll has always undercounted fatalities, analysis shows | World news | The Guardian
With so many mutants and so many vaccines coming online, no wonder nothing will change regarding Australian entry requirements. This is going to create the mother of all chaos trying to establish a workable "vaccine passport". It's just simply not going to happen. You heard it from me.
So far, the only instance of 'saleable vaccine' that has come to light (that I have seen) is the following:
Thailand is known for its medical tourism proficiency and success. It seems that in mid December, a private Bangkok clinic attached to a reputable hospital was offering a dual dose of vaccine for approximately AUD $1,000 at current conversion rates, Apparently, the Government health authorities became aware of this and promptly took action, by confiscating the supply, fining the clinic and making them publish a public apology. All enforced by the Ministry of Health and personnel from the Thai Army.
Given how many people in Australia have no desire to travel and want to stay behind closed borders forever (particularly in QLD and WA), they should go to the back of the queue. Irrespective of their age etc.
Those reliant on travel for their business or to connect with their families should be prioritized, and if needed pay to get the vaccine. This will ensure a quicker and more efficient economic recovery.
That same attitude will give rise to a situation where the richer, and you can read richer countries as well, get the vaccines earlier. Promoting inequality and in the end also slowing the fight against the pandemic.
Given how many people in Australia have no desire to travel and want to stay behind closed borders forever (particularly in QLD and WA), they should go to the back of the queue. Irrespective of their age etc.
Those reliant on travel for their business or to connect with their families should be prioritized, and if needed pay to get the vaccine. This will ensure a quicker and more efficient economic recovery.
That same attitude will give rise to a situation where the richer, and you can read richer countries as well, get the vaccines earlier. Promoting inequality and in the end also slowing the fight against the pandemic.
Given how many people in Australia have no desire to travel and want to stay behind closed borders forever (particularly in QLD and WA), they should go to the back of the queue. Irrespective of their age etc.
Those reliant on travel for their business or to connect with their families should be prioritized, and if needed pay to get the vaccine. This will ensure a quicker and more efficient economic recovery.
That same attitude will give rise to a situation where the richer, and you can read richer countries as well, get the vaccines earlier. Promoting inequality and in the end also slowing the fight against the pandemic.
Agree with KW72 but it would not work because most won’t have the vaccine and the premiers of those two states will keep the lock out because they want to keep the stay in state citizens safe. Stop the state paranoia and politics. If we had a prime minister with some go in him we will adopt a we are one . Last time I looked at my passport it said Australian.
That will lead to elitism, show the supply of the vaccine to countries that can't afford the price and in the end will result in a pandemic to hang around much longer as the world will continue to struggle with mass infection. The result will be that it becomes self-defeating for those that jumped the que by showing their dollars because they can than not live in a world that has the pandemic under control. I'm not trying to be condescending but this is reality unfortunately.
That will lead to elitism, show the supply of the vaccine to countries that can't afford the price and in the end will result in a pandemic to hang around much longer as the world will continue to struggle with mass infection. The result will be that it becomes self-defeating for those that jumped the que by showing their dollars because they can than not live in a world that has the pandemic under control. I'm not trying to be condescending but this is reality unfortunately.
You are correct. If you are concerned about travel. it's not about when you get a jab, it's when most of the people in your destination have had a jab.
I think that those who can afford it should be permitted to pay for, and get it before other people.
That is sick. Basic healthcare and in particular when it saves lives, should always be based on need and not on your wealth. Maybe in basket case countries like the US but not in the rest of the world.
I think that those who can afford it should be permitted to pay for, and get it before other people.
That is sick. Basic healthcare and in particular when it saves lives, should always be based on need and not on your wealth. Maybe in basket case countries like the US but not in the rest of the world.
Haha. I knew I could sucker someone in to commenting on my INDEFENSIBLE post!
So, Greg E; explain to me why someone in my local community can get a knee replacement in 2 weeks IF they can afford the $5,000 private health insurance but have to wait 18 months if they can't. Or heart bypass surgery in 3 days rather than 3 weeks?
How come our nation has suddenly developed an epidemic of altruism as a result of a virus, but cares nothing about the other health inequalities?
Save your outrage for the ballot box and not a travel forum.
I think that those who can afford it should be permitted to pay for, and get it before other people.
That is sick. Basic healthcare and in particular when it saves lives, should always be based on need and not on your wealth. Maybe in basket case countries like the US but not in the rest of the world.
Haha. I knew I could sucker someone in to commenting on my INDEFENSIBLE post!
So, Greg E; explain to me why someone in my local community can get a knee replacement in 2 weeks IF they can afford the $5,000 private health insurance but have to wait 18 months if they can't. Or heart bypass surgery in 3 days rather than 3 weeks?
How come our nation has suddenly developed an epidemic of altruism as a result of a virus, but cares nothing about the other health inequalities?
Save your outrage for the ballot box and not a travel forum.
IMHO
I was fully on topic discussing the merits of paid covid vaccinations in a topic called "COVID-19 vaccine - paid options". I struggle with how you want to take the morale high ground with a rant about the alleged differences between waiting times in public and private hospitals.
Not sure why you consider the statement “ those who can afford it should be permitted to pay ufor, and get it before other people” as indefensible since effectively governments who can afford it are buying and distributing it on behalf of the people they serve, before people in other countries
Very few in mainstream media is currently arguing for their fellow citizens to give up their vaccines for people in other countries as far as I can tell, just the philosophical discussion about inequity of how people from poor countries are not getting the “good” vaccine or any vaccine at all. Those who have real belief in their stance on this aspect of vaccine inequity are welcomed to refuse to receive the vaccine when offered, until they decide there is no longer vaccine inequity in the world.
Mind you, there is always vaccine inequity in the world for as long as government vaccination program exists, even before COVID-19 happens so it's going to be a long long time.
As evidence from the Israeli experience showed, the so call 95% efficacy of fancy new vaccines so promoted does not necessarily translate to real world effectiveness and frankly speaking the demands in Australian media for Pfizer or Moderna vaccine based on initial data (and they want it now!) tries to short circuit the vigorous process TGA is supposed to have.
Many people forget that UK, EU and USA are in the midst of a pandemic out of control with rising death toll, and the vaccines approved are on the basis of very limited data, in a emergency situation, that no drug authority would have done in peacetime.
It's like people drowning in the sea grabbing on to a rope tied to a ship on fire; the rope might save them from drowning immediately, but they face another bigger problem with the fire (and possible sinking of the ship!)
I don't think that many medical experts agitating for pzifer or moderna vaccine realise that in effect UK, EU and USA are the guinea pigs for large scale rollout and experience of the vaccines for the drug companies and the rest of the world who have access to these vaccines through advanced orders. Even 3 or 6 months advanced experience give knowledge to the true effectiveness and difficulties with vaccine rollout. From the looks of it, it seemed that they really take the company data as kosher and believe it translates into the real world.
I think TGA was smart to not jump into the game too early.
We also forget about the Sputnik and Sinovac vaccines which gets very little news coverage, and when they do get discussed, it's almost in the negative light. We know they are at least 50% effective in trials to achieve the basic criteria set by the WHO for effective vaccines but we don't really know much about the real world experience so far.
But if a low/middle income country like Indonesia can secure vaccines for almost 70% of its population, mostly sinovac, then it shows that a determined organised government will be able to get the vaccine order, and it's quite likely the cost of Sinovac vaccine is a very small fraction of pzifer or even Oxford astra Zeneca vaccine. The main issue for these countries would be distribution including cold supply chain as much as the availability/cost of vaccines itself.
Even now for the rich countries, the issue is not just the costs but the availability of the vaccines with EU threatening to stop vaccine exports from EU factories when the companies are struggling to fulfill advanced orders from EU countries.
That is almost like when Trump forbid 3M to send their N95 masks to other countries in mid 2020 even though the mask orders had occurred before the pandemic strike the US (only US company manufacturers can certify N95 masks which is a US Standard)
As for any Australian willing to pay to jump queue to get the vaccine in Australia, since the vaccine companies are largely dealing with government bulk orders, any supply outside government endorsed outlet should be considered as suspect as they are either fake, stolen (with potential issues in storage in cold chain conditions) or not approved (eg Sinovac or Sputnik) so getting the official COVID vaccine stamp of approval for travel purposes will be very difficult.
Roy Jones
Roy Jones
Member since 20 May 2020
Total posts 1
In the UK they also report "excess deaths" - the number of deaths above an average of the last 5 years. And that figure is above the numbers quoted as due to COVID-19. I don't think any other country does, but that would indicate under rather than over reporting.
Greg E
Greg E
Member since 26 Sep 2020
Total posts 26
Originally Posted by Richard W
Originally Posted by Greg E
Originally Posted by Richard W
Originally Posted by Rita Cavanagh
Yes, we should be scared of the virus--just look at the numbers of infections and deaths in the UK and the US, and yes I know that they have bigger populations than we have.
GoRobin
GoRobin
Member since 07 May 2020
Total posts 113
With so many mutants and so many vaccines coming online, no wonder nothing will change regarding Australian entry requirements. This is going to create the mother of all chaos trying to establish a workable "vaccine passport". It's just simply not going to happen. You heard it from me.
kimshep
kimshep
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 11 Oct 2014
Total posts 412
So far, the only instance of 'saleable vaccine' that has come to light (that I have seen) is the following:
Thailand is known for its medical tourism proficiency and success. It seems that in mid December, a private Bangkok clinic attached to a reputable hospital was offering a dual dose of vaccine for approximately AUD $1,000 at current conversion rates, Apparently, the Government health authorities became aware of this and promptly took action, by confiscating the supply, fining the clinic and making them publish a public apology. All enforced by the Ministry of Health and personnel from the Thai Army.
hankjay2012
hankjay2012
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 21 Jul 2014
Total posts 3
Originally Posted by KW72
Given how many people in Australia have no desire to travel and want to stay behind closed borders forever (particularly in QLD and WA), they should go to the back of the queue. Irrespective of their age etc.
Those reliant on travel for their business or to connect with their families should be prioritized, and if needed pay to get the vaccine. This will ensure a quicker and more efficient economic recovery.
hankjay2012
hankjay2012
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 21 Jul 2014
Total posts 3
Originally Posted by KW72
Given how many people in Australia have no desire to travel and want to stay behind closed borders forever (particularly in QLD and WA), they should go to the back of the queue. Irrespective of their age etc.
Those reliant on travel for their business or to connect with their families should be prioritized, and if needed pay to get the vaccine. This will ensure a quicker and more efficient economic recovery.
Kev2003
Kev2003
Jetstar Airways - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 20 Apr 2016
Total posts 6
Originally Posted by hankjay2012
Originally Posted by KW72
Given how many people in Australia have no desire to travel and want to stay behind closed borders forever (particularly in QLD and WA), they should go to the back of the queue. Irrespective of their age etc.
Those reliant on travel for their business or to connect with their families should be prioritized, and if needed pay to get the vaccine. This will ensure a quicker and more efficient economic recovery.
duffa Banned
duffa Banned
Member since 11 Nov 2017
Total posts 5
I think that those who can afford it should be permitted to pay for, and get it before other people.
hankjay2012
hankjay2012
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
Member since 21 Jul 2014
Total posts 3
That will lead to elitism, show the supply of the vaccine to countries that can't afford the price and in the end will result in a pandemic to hang around much longer as the world will continue to struggle with mass infection. The result will be that it becomes self-defeating for those that jumped the que by showing their dollars because they can than not live in a world that has the pandemic under control. I'm not trying to be condescending but this is reality unfortunately.
Greg E
Greg E
Member since 26 Sep 2020
Total posts 26
Originally Posted by hankjay2012
That will lead to elitism, show the supply of the vaccine to countries that can't afford the price and in the end will result in a pandemic to hang around much longer as the world will continue to struggle with mass infection. The result will be that it becomes self-defeating for those that jumped the que by showing their dollars because they can than not live in a world that has the pandemic under control. I'm not trying to be condescending but this is reality unfortunately.
Greg E
Greg E
Member since 26 Sep 2020
Total posts 26
Originally Posted by duffa
I think that those who can afford it should be permitted to pay for, and get it before other people.
duffa Banned
duffa Banned
Member since 11 Nov 2017
Total posts 5
Originally Posted by Greg E
Originally Posted by duffa
I think that those who can afford it should be permitted to pay for, and get it before other people.
So, Greg E; explain to me why someone in my local community can get a knee replacement in 2 weeks IF they can afford the $5,000 private health insurance but have to wait 18 months if they can't. Or heart bypass surgery in 3 days rather than 3 weeks?
How come our nation has suddenly developed an epidemic of altruism as a result of a virus, but cares nothing about the other health inequalities?
Save your outrage for the ballot box and not a travel forum.
IMHO
Greg E
Greg E
Member since 26 Sep 2020
Total posts 26
Originally Posted by duffa
Originally Posted by Greg E
Originally Posted by duffa
I think that those who can afford it should be permitted to pay for, and get it before other people.
So, Greg E; explain to me why someone in my local community can get a knee replacement in 2 weeks IF they can afford the $5,000 private health insurance but have to wait 18 months if they can't. Or heart bypass surgery in 3 days rather than 3 weeks?
How come our nation has suddenly developed an epidemic of altruism as a result of a virus, but cares nothing about the other health inequalities?
Save your outrage for the ballot box and not a travel forum.
IMHO
duffa Banned
duffa Banned
Member since 11 Nov 2017
Total posts 5
Eh, no. You said it was "sick" that someone could pay to get vaccinated first. (Or that I suggested it was acceptable) Either way it's the same thing.
I was merely pointing out to the OP, that paying to jump the queue is how it works here, just like the good old USA.
Furthermore, I believe it was you who broadened the discussion to health inequality in general...
"Basic healthcare and in particular when it saves lives, should always be based on need and not on your wealth"
XWu
XWu
Member since 09 May 2020
Total posts 197
Not sure why you consider the statement “ those who can afford it should be permitted to pay ufor, and get it before other people” as indefensible since effectively governments who can afford it are buying and distributing it on behalf of the people they serve, before people in other countries
Very few in mainstream media is currently arguing for their fellow citizens to give up their vaccines for people in other countries as far as I can tell, just the philosophical discussion about inequity of how people from poor countries are not getting the “good” vaccine or any vaccine at all. Those who have real belief in their stance on this aspect of vaccine inequity are welcomed to refuse to receive the vaccine when offered, until they decide there is no longer vaccine inequity in the world.
Mind you, there is always vaccine inequity in the world for as long as government vaccination program exists, even before COVID-19 happens so it's going to be a long long time.
As evidence from the Israeli experience showed, the so call 95% efficacy of fancy new vaccines so promoted does not necessarily translate to real world effectiveness and frankly speaking the demands in Australian media for Pfizer or Moderna vaccine based on initial data (and they want it now!) tries to short circuit the vigorous process TGA is supposed to have.
Many people forget that UK, EU and USA are in the midst of a pandemic out of control with rising death toll, and the vaccines approved are on the basis of very limited data, in a emergency situation, that no drug authority would have done in peacetime.
It's like people drowning in the sea grabbing on to a rope tied to a ship on fire; the rope might save them from drowning immediately, but they face another bigger problem with the fire (and possible sinking of the ship!)
I don't think that many medical experts agitating for pzifer or moderna vaccine realise that in effect UK, EU and USA are the guinea pigs for large scale rollout and experience of the vaccines for the drug companies and the rest of the world who have access to these vaccines through advanced orders. Even 3 or 6 months advanced experience give knowledge to the true effectiveness and difficulties with vaccine rollout. From the looks of it, it seemed that they really take the company data as kosher and believe it translates into the real world.
I think TGA was smart to not jump into the game too early.
We also forget about the Sputnik and Sinovac vaccines which gets very little news coverage, and when they do get discussed, it's almost in the negative light. We know they are at least 50% effective in trials to achieve the basic criteria set by the WHO for effective vaccines but we don't really know much about the real world experience so far.
But if a low/middle income country like Indonesia can secure vaccines for almost 70% of its population, mostly sinovac, then it shows that a determined organised government will be able to get the vaccine order, and it's quite likely the cost of Sinovac vaccine is a very small fraction of pzifer or even Oxford astra Zeneca vaccine. The main issue for these countries would be distribution including cold supply chain as much as the availability/cost of vaccines itself.
Even now for the rich countries, the issue is not just the costs but the availability of the vaccines with EU threatening to stop vaccine exports from EU factories when the companies are struggling to fulfill advanced orders from EU countries.
That is almost like when Trump forbid 3M to send their N95 masks to other countries in mid 2020 even though the mask orders had occurred before the pandemic strike the US (only US company manufacturers can certify N95 masks which is a US Standard)
As for any Australian willing to pay to jump queue to get the vaccine in Australia, since the vaccine companies are largely dealing with government bulk orders, any supply outside government endorsed outlet should be considered as suspect as they are either fake, stolen (with potential issues in storage in cold chain conditions) or not approved (eg Sinovac or Sputnik) so getting the official COVID vaccine stamp of approval for travel purposes will be very difficult.