Airbus, Boeing bullish on new globe-spanning jets for Qantas
By David Flynn, September 5 2017
Airbus and Boeing have thrown their hats into the ring to produce ultra-long range jets capable of non-stop flights from Australia's largest cities to New York and London.
Under Qantas' ambitious 'Project Sunrise' program, the highly-competitive Kangaroo Route from Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane to London would forego stopovers such as Dubai and Singapore for a direct flight of upwards of 20 hours from 2022.
Non-stop flights to New York would be slightly shorter, at around 18 hours, while direct flights to Paris, Rio de Janeiro and Cape Town are also mooted.
Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce formally wrote to the CEOs of Airbus and Boeing on August 23, prior to the public announcement of the project, offering that "over the next 12 months we would like to work independently with both companies on performance and design parameters that would deliver an aircraft with the right range and the right economics for Qantas to make this vision a reality."
"This would ultimately lead to a competitive tender process ahead of a potential order for the successful aircraft type."
Joyce now says that "both Airbus and Boeing have responded to the challenge," telling Sky News that both companies "have said they believe they can create an aircraft by 2022 that will get that range."
Boeing is slightly more circumspect, with a spokesperson telling Australian Business Traveller "while we don’t share details of our discussions with customers, we are confident the 777X will advance the world’s most efficient twin-aisle family by providing the best payload, operating economics and range combination in the market."
An Airbus spokesperson says the company will "have the A350-900ULR in service next year for ultra-long range flights of up to 20 hours and we look forward to working with Qantas to see how we can meet its requirements for Sydney-London non-stop.”
However, Qantas has set the bar high for both companies, specifying that the long-legged jets cannot be fitted with additional fuel tanks and must be capable of carrying "a full commercial payload" of passengers, with 300 seats said to be the target.
Qantas' Boeing 787-9, which will begin non-stop flights from Perth to London in March 2018, has been configured with 236 seats – a relatively low number for the long-range Dreamliner.
This will put the onus on Airbus and Boeing to dig deep to uncover design and engine efficiencies beyond those already planned for the Airbus A350-900ULR and Boeing 777X jets.
Earlier this year Airbus revised the range of its A350-900ULR to 9,700 nautical miles (17,960km), up from an initial 8,700 nautical miles (16,110km) as specified for launch customer Singapore Airlines, which will begin flying the A350ULR in 2018 on non-stop services to Los Angeles and New York.
It's been speculated that Qantas could opt for a 10,000 nautical mile polar route between Sydney and London, to take advantage of strong tailwinds, rather than the conventional 9,200 nautical mile route across Asia and Europe.
Qantas is already crunching the numbers on up to a decade of real-world weather patterns on these routes to identify optimal fuel-saving flight paths for a world in which a transit stopovers would no longer be necessary.
It's estimated that the benefits of non-stop flights from Australia's largest markets to the likes of London and New York could allow Qantas to levy a 20% price premium compared to longer flights with stopovers.
David Flynn is the Editor-in-Chief of Executive Traveller and a bit of a travel tragic with a weakness for good coffee, shopping and lychee martinis.
05 May 2016
Total posts 619
This will be interesting. I'd be pleasantly surprised if QANTAS can start flying these routes by 2022.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Apr 2013
Total posts 390
Could we be seeing an A350-1000ULR?
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
13 Jan 2015
Total posts 584
Maybe but I'm thinking the additional weight would require additional fuel and probably provide no more range than the A359ULR
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
10 Apr 2013
Total posts 390
Yeah I see what you mean, but one of the requirements was to be a 300 seater aircraft.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
13 Jan 2015
Total posts 584
but also no additional fuel tanks...i just don't see how they can get that in the air by 2022.
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
13 Jan 2015
Total posts 584
LOOK! it's a bird, it's a plane...no wait it's a pie in the sky
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
elchriss0:
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@Chris2304:
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@elchriss0:
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
13 Jan 2015
Total posts 584
@FLX1 - I really like how you've gone deep with your responses...pretty much provided the evidence for my points where I was too lazy to do so. I used to know all the specs but haven't kept on top of things in the last year or 2 and so have forgotten the details.
24 Apr 2012
Total posts 21
IIRC, the A350-900ULR is effectively a shortened A350-1000 with extra fuel tanks, so an A350-1000ULR is probably unlikely. Someone more knowledgeable may be able to correct me though!
13 Sep 2016
Total posts 177
Not so. The A350-900ULR is a 'standard' A350-900 with more efficient capacity of the fuel tanks, no extra tanks fitted, which is why Airbus is actually promoting potential after-sales conversion of 'standard' A350-900s to ULR models to airlines buying the A350-900. The A350-1000 is a stretch of the A350-900 with higher passenger capacity but shorter range.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@Bob Burgess:
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
13 Jan 2015
Total posts 584
this seems like a case of beggars can't be choosers...no additional fuel tanks seems unrealistic considering that they need 10,000 plus contingency range in case of problems
05 May 2016
Total posts 619
They could well have to have extra fuel tanks and then maybe five/ten years later move to a further improved model that may not need them and rip out the extra tanks and put the planes obtained in 5 years time on shorter routes.
Air New Zealand - Airpoints
21 Jan 2016
Total posts 195
With recent advances in aircraft technology that has seen the development of the B787 and A350, there is no reason for ultra long haul flights using the B777x, A350-900ulr and the B787 extended range.
Air NZ is now looking at the A350-900ulr and the B777 as possible replace to the B772 fleet.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@krisdude:
07 Mar 2017
Total posts 59
Are there economy passengers that would want to pay 20% more for no-stops and 18-20 hours in one seat? In a presumably tight plane to achieve the seating number? And 300 premium seats wouldn't add up.
Doesn't seem realistic.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@TheBigM:
28 Dec 2016
Total posts 71
I'd like a hefty discount if flying firect in economy...
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
06 Jan 2017
Total posts 17
Yes agree.
30 Aug 2017
Total posts 32
New York bound economy passengers can choose any US airport or AKL as the stopover. AirNZ is going to fly NY around the same time using either B777-8 (with 325+ pax) or A350ULR.
05 Mar 2012
Total posts 26
In business - sure. Economy no way
04 Aug 2014
Total posts 35
I just don't see how it can be done without adding additional fuel tank, let alone carrying a full payload.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
14 Sep 2012
Total posts 381
Well you need a mighty good entertainment system or free reliable WIFI for movie/TV downloads to keep everyone entertained for the trip. QF could start today by replacing their current manager who is responsible for their very average in-flight entertainment and bring in the person who looks after SQ Krisworld.
05 Sep 2017
Total posts 5
I and many others cattle class flyers don't see the point in be charged $2000 for per-lhr and be seated for 18hrs when you can pay $1200 with a leg stretch stopover in sin, dxb, doh, auh, etc. and arrive only 4 or 5 hrs later. Different story for business class that is where airlines make more money.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
11 Nov 2015
Total posts 38
Mate, you miss the point I think.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
21 Mar 2013
Total posts 132
Failing Airbus and Boeing providing a solution, I wonder whether Auckland would be considered by QF as a New York departure point.
25 Sep 2013
Total posts 1245
I doubt the NZ government would ever allow that. Air NZ would raise hell.
Air New Zealand - Airpoints
21 Jan 2016
Total posts 195
NZ Government will allow it under the 'open skies' agreement but Air NZ will not be happy.
NYC is on Air NZ list of feature destinations.
Singapore Airlines - KrisFlyer
14 Jan 2014
Total posts 341
I don't even think I want to do this in Buz class, never mind economy.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
17 May 2015
Total posts 75
Direct flights to Rio de Janeiro have been mooted? That is laughable. There is no way direct flights to Brazil would be economically viable under the current cumbersome visa requirements for Australians which involve sending your passport to Canberra, allowing three weeks for processing, and forking out about $250. Not to mention the fact that Rio's international airport is an absolute shocker (one of the worst major city airports in the world). The airport also has poor transport options to touristy neighbourhoods such as Copacabana and Ipanema with non-existent and confusing public transport. Not to mention fairly average connections to other Brazilian cities. Then there is the problem of Rio itself: its dangerous, locals can be rude and arrogant, infrastructure is poor, basic tourist information is difficult to find, hotels are well below the standards of Europe and Asia, shops and services are often poor quality and expensive, English is not widely spoken expect in the most touristy areas, corruption is rife, bureaucracy is everywhere, and the city is in a state of political and financial crisis which is reflected in local's morale (when I was there in April there were riots where buses were set alight and we were told not to leave our hotel), and public cultural institutions are under serious pressure to even stay open (you only need to read about the plight of Maracana stadium to see what a basket case the city is). If direct flights to Brazil do commence I think it is much more likely to be to Sao Paulo which has a great airport and better connections. Although SP is not a destination in itself which defeats the purpose of such a long flight. I would still prefer connecting in Santiago which is one of the easiest airports in the world to transfer through.
03 Sep 2017
Total posts 49
Seems like a lot of figure crunching on both the technology of the aircraft and profitability, and all about the total hours of flight. And there were a few mention of EY pax preferring a stopover.
Personally, I would like to see airlines making consideration with new ideas, by having a balance between total flight hours for profit sake, and keeping health risk low.
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