Qantas: non-stop Sydney, Melbourne to London, New York by 2022
By David Flynn, August 25 2017
Qantas wants to begin non-stop flights from Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane to London, New York, Paris and Rio by 2022 – provided it can convince Airbus or Boeing to develop an ultra-long range jet capable of conquering the 18 to 20-hour direct routes.
Qantas CEO Alan Joyce formally launched the ambitious initiative at today's declaration of the airline’s 2017 financial results, where the airline listed a pre-tax profit of $1.4 billion – the second largest in its history.
While Airbus and Boeing are already working on range-topping jetliners in the form of the Airbus A350-900ULR and Boeing 777-8X, Joyce noted they still fall short of making direct flights from Australia’s east coast capitals to London and New York "with passengers and luggage at full capacity."
The aircraft manufacturers will be challenged to push the envelope in technology, design and engineering, with the longest-legged jet slotting in alongside the Airbus A380 and Boeing 787 Dreamliner in the vanguard of Qantas’ international fleet.
For its part, Qantas is already crunching the numbers on up to a decade of real-world weather patterns on these routes to identify optimal fuel-saving flight paths for a world in which a transit stopovers would no longer be necessary.
For example, news agency Reuters suggests that flights between Australia's east coast capitals and London would follow a "northern polar route" – which although longer than the conventional Asia/Europe corridor boasts "the benefit of strong tailwinds rather than fierce headwinds".
From A to B with more Zzzz
It’s estimated that passengers on a non-stop version of today’s QF1 flight from Sydney to London would be in the air for 20 hours and 20 minutes – a saving of almost four hours compared to the total journey time of today’s route via Dubai.
Similarly, a non-stop flight from Sydney to New York would take just over 18 hours, shaving almost three hours off the total travel time when flying via Los Angeles.
Although Qantas will talk up the savings in time and convenience provided by skipping such stop-overs, for many passengers it’s also about a more contiguous journey with the chance for longer uninterrupted periods of sleep.
That’s certainly the expectation of Singapore Airlines, which will restart non-stop flights to New York and Los Angeles next year as the global launch customer for the Airbus A350-900ULR.
"When you actually measure the total time (between Singapore and New York) – let’s say you transit through Frankfurt – there’s not much of a difference (between non-stop and transit)," Mr Tan Pee Teck, Singapore Airlines' Senior Vice President for Product & Services, previously told Australian Business Traveller of the direct route.
"The only thing is that you can have a longer sleep – instead of 13 hours and then (another) 7 hours, you’d fly non-stop."
The A350-900ULR came about as a result of a campaign by Singapore Airlines which tasked Airbus and Boeing to deliver a jet with the necessary range to resume LA and New York flights.
Airbus achieved this by modifying the standard A350-900 with additional fuel capacity and engineering tweaks, although it also relied on reducing the passenger count to around 170 seats, compared to 253 in SQ's standard A350-900.
It's understood that Qantas is wary of sacrificing too many seats in its quest for a longer-legged jetliner.
David Flynn is the Editor-in-Chief of Executive Traveller and a bit of a travel tragic with a weakness for good coffee, shopping and lychee martinis.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
08 Sep 2012
Total posts 236
I wonder if this is a just a publicity exercise for the time being. If demand for the direct PER-LHR flights is consistently high, then it may work. But direct flights to London and NYC are risky. If you can't consistently fill the plane, it may not be viable.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
alex_upgrade77:
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
02 Apr 2017
Total posts 134
Demand from Australia to London is consistently high, there's a reason there's so much competition on the kangaroo route. New York also very high demand.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Oct 2011
Total posts 461
The point of the comment will be to apply pressure to Boeing and Airbus - AJ is basically saying to them: "whoever can develop such an aircraft first will get the contract."
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@John Phelan:
24 Aug 2011
Total posts 1209
The biggest risk is that both Airbus and Boeing may say it just isn't worth developing such a plane. Who, apart from Qantas will be interested? Unless you can sell 200+, it will be a loss making investment. Both have already lost significant sums on the A345 and 77L. They may not have the stomach for such a risk when the real sweet spot at the moment seems to be longer range single aisle jets
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
06 Sep 2012
Total posts 234
I agree, developing a whole new jet or making extensive modifications can be risky to both companies if they are only servicing one airline. They will either need to find more customers to get a business case, or make cost efficient changes to the currently developing A350/B777x models. An A350-1000ULR jet would be interesting if they reconfigure the fuel tanks like they did with the A350-900ULR.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@Jedinak K:
Qantas
19 Apr 2012
Total posts 1425
The need for new engines raises the interesting question of the forthcoming Rolls Royce Advance engine (about then) which may enable the A350-1000 to lift that extra fuel without a new wing, which airbus would not do.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@patrickk:
11 Dec 2015
Total posts 85
If Qantas want to start the flights in 5 years time, that pretty much limits the scope of any modifications that Airbus or Boeing could perform down to HGW versions of standard models.
Qantas
19 Apr 2012
Total posts 1425
The gamble is also on fuel prices. If they are high the cost of carrying the extra fuel may outweigh a stop. Despite AJs comment about sacrificing passengers they will have to do so just as they do on most occasions on the Dallas Sydney A380 leg, And as they permanently do with the low seat numbers on the 789.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Jul 2016
Total posts 108
This would be amazing, however, is it viable for Boeing/Airbus and Qantas?
For the aicraft makers, they need to sell a good amount of planes for it to be worth the risk. At the moment, Qantas is the only one that wants these planes.
For Qantas, is it worth investing in the money for these planes. They would have to be unbelievebly efficient to make these routes work. Is it viable? Will customers prefer non-stop? 20 hours in a long thin tube, if you think realistically, unless if you got a good deal of space, you will not be the happiest chappy. And, fuel prices are going to have to rise soon. Where will they deploy these planes if it is not viable?
It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
04 Dec 2012
Total posts 38
I'm also curious about crew - what's the limit for one crew to work a flight right now, and how much (if any) does taking a few hours off in the crew rest allow for extending their total work hours? I feel like 20hrs + would mean they may need a much larger crew rest and an entire substitute crew? And even if they didn't, I'm sure they'd have to rest them for multiple days on either end, which could add up on the hotel costs too rather than switching out crew more efficiently at a middle stop point.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
26 May 2014
Total posts 465
I don't know what the thresholds are, but I do know that the long haul 787 flights to LAX and LHR will have 4 pilots: Captain, First Officer, Cruise Captain and Second Officer. The Captain and First Officer do the beginning and end of the flight.
16 Dec 2016
Total posts 54
Please don't let this be an opportunity for the cynical ABT followers to rant. This is a bold and achievable anouncement that we should applaud Qantas for making. I look forward to seeing it happen
11 Dec 2015
Total posts 85
I think most of us would love it to work.
And it could be a pretty amazing in first / business especially - as there's plenty of opportunity to enjoy the food/entertainment etc.that comes with the experience and still have time for a solid 8 hours sleep and a lazy breakfast when you wake up - given there's no transit stop
05 May 2016
Total posts 619
This proves what I've been saying for a while that Perth is a stop-gap
Qantas
19 Apr 2012
Total posts 1425
I think they will need three crews on board for 20 hours as against two for the Dallas et al flights.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@patrickk:
Qantas
19 Apr 2012
Total posts 1425
FLX1 I thought it was not that simple and after a point (18hrs or so) more people were required. Maybe not a full third crew but more than a simple 1:1.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@patrickk:
10 Aug 2015
Total posts 125
Its good BNE is getting considered
02 Dec 2016
Total posts 92
Considered, but it unlikely. QF will likely feed via SYD or LAX for JFK and PER for LHR.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
06 Oct 2016
Total posts 162
I think the caveat puts this down as a bit of a stunt, you build it and we will buy it.
Qantas
19 Apr 2012
Total posts 1425
It will work if they don't have to adjust the landing gear too much to take the higher weight. Adding more tanks to the A359 worked up to a point but not quite enough for AJ. They might add more tanks to the A350-1000 and see what they can get out of it. That would also keep the seat numbers closer to 300 than 250.
20 May 2015
Total posts 581
JFK is certainly doable in the A350ULR and probably the 777-8 too (although the return trip may be tough, but PER-LHR pushes the 787-9 to the limits and that's viable so...). Its LHR which is the tough one.
05 May 2016
Total posts 619
QF probably wants to use the same aircraft for both LHR and JFK to minimise the variety of aircraft in its fleet.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@mviy:
11 May 2017
Total posts 4
Rio is an interesting one! Also if you pause the map in the promo Project Sunrise clip, on the map when it zooms out they also have capetown as a destination on that map with dotted line from east coast of AUS! I wonder why it is not mentioned in promo video but is on that map? All other destinations on that map (Paris, London, New York, Rio) are mentioned?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Jun 2015
Total posts 57
I'm guessing because CPT probably doesn't get enough traffic and many planes in QF fleet are capable of doing this route so I guess it didn't fit with the whole challenge.
31 Jan 2013
Total posts 15
Can't wait for QF to call it uneven playing field when they axe the routes upon juice hitting 100/bbl
Qantas
02 May 2016
Total posts 62
I think it's a smart move by Qantas, would significantly reduce the impact of the hub airlines (SQ, CX, ME3 etc) as they'd fly right over them, challenges both Airbus and Boeing to be creative and thirdly potentially puts all the pressure on Airbus re the A380 orders and options, if they can't deliver a plane well there's really nothing for QF to buy, so potentially a very good negotiating position out of the options.
31 Jan 2013
Total posts 43
We're talking a 20+ hrs flight. Once you stretch out the 8hrs sleep you're still looking at 12hrs to put up with. Only so many meals and movies I can put up with in one go. Plus the longer the flight the greater the chance of maintenance problems. Just look at Sydney - Dallas. That route has more delays and cancellations on that route than any other. I think this is just Mr Joyce making sure that his nice big profit gets maximum media exposure.
02 Dec 2016
Total posts 92
And hygiene... after 20 hours.. that's going to be a funky smelling airplane.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@AgentGerko:
02 Dec 2016
Total posts 32
I can imagine doing 20 hours in Business or First, but I can't see any appeal for Economy passengers, or even Premium Economy. There's not much point touting the extra unbroken sleep time if you're not in a seat conducive to sleeping in the first place!
Qantas
13 Jun 2015
Total posts 141
We know that QF has 8 B789s on delivery - first 4 in FY18 and second 4 in FY19. Both Aircraft B777-8X and A359ULR would have enough range to fly from East Coast to JFK non-stop.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@Shoudy Chen:
Qantas
13 Jun 2015
Total posts 141
Good to see QF upgrading from Skybed to Business Suites. The Business Suites is a better product than the outdated Skybeds.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
28 Jun 2017
Total posts 2
20hour flight no matter the class of travel would just be terrible. Who are the people that think one can sleep for that long, and the poor crew, what a terrible work day for them! We already have to put up with terrible seating, food and entertainment screens at least getting out allows us to have a stretch!!!
Malaysia Airlines - Enrich
28 Feb 2017
Total posts 8
I'm hoping they can launch medium haul first rather than super long haul such as Kuala Lumpur. Many codeshare flights can be established
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
16 Feb 2013
Total posts 13
Probably off topic and undoubtedly just me but the sense of awe and wonder that you may finally have the chance to board a gleaming new Airbus or Boeing in Syd or LHR and complete the journey in one all be at long leap is remarkable and maybe worth the development for this alone. May also merit a wee article looking back on the days then hours it used to take and the many exotic stops along the way.
18 Oct 2015
Total posts 28
AJ has to get walk real & lose payload for these lengths. Expecting to carry 300 people these lengths is not comfort realistic. Carrying 170 allows Qantas to return to their roots of a perfect saftey record & premium service.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
Timmy22bc:
13 Dec 2014
Total posts 3
Using piece of string on a globe the polar route comes close to overflying Toronto??
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
mickjoebill:
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
09 Aug 2016
Total posts 38
I get the attraction in the premium classes, but why would anyone travelling in economy want to be on an aircraft for that long? Geez, I live for the transit stop on the way to Europe to walk and stretch the legs!
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@craigi77:
Virgin Australia - Velocity Rewards
11 Dec 2016
Total posts 74
Thinking outside the square a bit. I wonder if some intelligent engineer has found a way to run a solar powered electric motor to somehow keep the plane flying while at high altitude cruising speed?
18 Oct 2015
Total posts 28
Would there be enough heat up there at -42degrees?
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
30 May 2013
Total posts 372
Heat has nothing to do with it, solar panels are generated by light. Satellites out in the freezing depths of space run off solar.
11 Dec 2016
Total posts 42
Not economically viable even if they get the planes. SYD->LAX flies half empty in Economy for half the year already. Now imagine a separate flight taking some of that traffic direct to JFK.
05 May 2016
Total posts 619
If direct flights to JFK go ahead then flights to LAX could get downgraded from an A380 to a smaller plane outside of peak demand times if they can't justify an A380. The BNE flights to LAX will get downgraded from 747 to 787 and if there's not enough demand there won't need to be two flights from MEL to LAX on some days anymore but rather always just the one.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
09 May 2011
Total posts 362
Where do you get the idea that SYD-LAX Y class flies half empty for half the year?
06 Feb 2014
Total posts 113
Publicity stunt...got air time and newscoverage everywhere, but from a business perspective tell me how this will move the needle on qantas' bottom line. There simply isn't a market for triple daily into JFK nor 4x daily into heathrow (incl Perth)...more importantly Qantas results showed "international" dragging the chain on performance. Will they end up doing non stops from Sydney to JFK and Heathrow...yes, but it will happen post 2022 and Melbourne and brizzie will be waiting!
23 Feb 2015
Total posts 262
Given the anticipated discomfort of being in economy on these flights, I wonder if the conclusion will be that these flights should be nothing less than PE and the mass people movers like A380 that need to stop become overwhelmingly economy class? Similar to the old SQ approach, but with the PE concession, and a suggestion that first could be included.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
18 Dec 2016
Total posts 30
I would fly on PER-LHR direct, but not SYD-LHR. There comes a point where a flight can be too long, and 20 hours on a plane is such flight.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
It just daunts on me that SYD/MEL-JFK nonstop makes tons of econ/mkt sense fm QF Trans-Pcf network effectiveness perspective.
30 Aug 2017
Total posts 32
AirNZ has already been planning to launch AKL-JFK nonstop plus several other non-stop services to rest of the east coast capitals (i.e. AKL-GIG). That announcement came a couple of days before QF one.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@kabe100:
23 Feb 2015
Total posts 262
An interesting read on a traveller re Auckland to Doha, that gives some insight into what this would be like.
31 Mar 2016
Total posts 621
@Steve987:
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
19 Oct 2015
Total posts 11
Fantastic news!!!
24 Apr 2012
Total posts 2441
We don't have that information at hand, but you can find this information yourself by searching for flights on the Qantas website.
Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer
20 Feb 2016
Total posts 25
Great news. Good work Qantas.
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