What do you want from Qantas' Project Sunrise first, business class?

Maybe an area for stretching that PAX can use as part of a bar area.

Those with the menus and information that they gathered from the Perth to London flights would make for a pretty good experience for me.

I'd agree that business and first amenity kits need to be upgraded to suit these long flights. Those 'flight socks' which reduce risk of DVT and some sort of moisturising facial mask, things which go beyond the usual skincare and toothbrush.

I would certainly like to see a larger first class suite although there would be limits as to how large they can be, Etihad's Boeing 787 first class suites are probably a good example without going all-out like the A380 suites. But part of me thinks that this is what business class should be on a 20hr flight in the year 2022 so maybe first class has to be larger again.

I think some social area is a must-have, maybe between business and premium economy there should be small stand-up bar area plus some seating and space for stretching. Virgin Australia's Boeing 777s do this really well with their bar.

Need to get the basics right before considering gyms etc. Also remember Auckland to Dubai is approximately 17hrs, 10mins, so in reality ‘Project Sunrise’ is not much longer.

As a minimum for the premium classes, QF needs to have closed in First Class suites, possibly something between the current Emirates First Class and there new ‘larger’ first class suites. For business class, the Qatar Q-Suite style as a minimum, the current QF A330/B787 business class is old hat, and there are better offerings on the market. Not flown the QF B787 premium economy, but understand that leg room is limited, so that would need improving.

A usable premium social area (EK style bar) is needed for first and business classes, allowing movement etc. Something similar for economy as well, may be a self-service bar and snacks.

A decent (plenty to choice from) selection of; movies, TV programs, music etc.

I do agree some space to walk around and stretch is important but it has to be a space you want to be in. The Emirates 380 bar area is good, the Qantas 380 ‘lounge’ is really wasted space. That may be difficult in a smaller aircraft though.

Finally, give the crew decent galley space separate to the passenger toilets. In more and more ‘modern’ aircraft it seems the two areas become one.

Remember if there is say 70 J/F seats and each person wants to stand up for just 2 hours of a 20 hour flight, there will be an average of 7 people in here at a time so it needs to be a decent sized space.

Next request would be seats/suites with quite a good amount of privacy.

Business suite development has come far enough that this is a concept that could be employed reasonably soon - and a low density sunrise aircraft would be the perfect testing ground for it. Concepts I’ve seen so far are staggered 2 - 2 style suites where all parties have direct aisle access thanks to the suite routing, with the center aisle being easier for egress than the twin aisle’s we’re familliar with (thanks to generous width).

The prospect (at least in J) actually suggests greaterr flying economics for 6ish meter cabin widths - but until it’s deployed I suppose it’s all pie in the sky.

If Qantas do decide to use the below-deck space for passengers, in flight, I think they could really innovate for First and Business passengers. For example, configure the main cabin in a very open, spacious style for passengers to eat, watch movies, talk, enjoy a bar etc. And place full beds below decks, as a dedicated, private sleep area, without all of the distractions and noises from the main cabin (assuming the deck can be sufficiently sound proofed). If they don't need to provide full-size bed suites for each seat on the main deck, this could allow more space for other amenities such as a bar, lounge, larger galley, more toilets etc.

Of course, this might limit their ability to use the ULR aircraft on routes like HKG, SIN and LAX, where they would want to use the hold for cargo. The alternative might be to put a bar, lounge, extended galley and the like downstairs.

F Class - I'd be thinking about a mini-office to work/bed suite to rest, eat & sleep given the price premium, but again not much realestate on a single deck twin aisle aircraft so need to be very creative here.

J Class - I'd be putting emphasis into creating a best in class mini-office in the sky and pay attention to great ergonomics, and then practical privacy, I'm not convinced privacy doors work. I think the 787 J class is very good and does the job well.

Bigger bathroom sinks so you can wash your face, or shave properly!

I do think dine on demand would be huge improvement.

Something small, but bigger basins in the bathrooms so you can wash your face and shave properly.

Dine on demand would be a good step.

A small bar would be good also. Somewhere to stretch and not feel you are in the way of the crew.

Both Business and first class should have a one bar/lounge to give an opportunity to stretch the legs.

I'd like business class to use the reverse herringbone seat as I think this is a bit better than the current suite.

Premium economy and economy should get a little more leg room.

Premium economy and economy's toilet should be move to the lower deck so that more space can be made on the upper deck. A stretch space and some galley storage could also be moved downstairs.

The fact people are suggesting showers show how quickly this has gone off course.

Firstly weight is the biggest killer on this flight... So the less walls the better. Walls are heavy. This means no closed in first class and certainly no closed in business with doors. It's so silly!

To kill 20 hours you need to be able to do one of three things: sleep, work or watch movies/read. Everything else is surperfluous. A stretch/yoga/bar/social area is a great idea and this should change role at certain stages of the flight. Finally QANTAS current premium economy needs to be the new economy for this flight.

I think showers are very unrealistic here. The only aircraft which have showers are the A380s of Emirates and Etihad. Space will be at a premium on these singe-deck aircraft and every bit of weight carried will add up, and water weighs a lot. Much better for Qantas to offer access to an arrivals lounge where passengers can shower and freshen up, have their shirt pressed etc.

Something I'd like to see would be an inflight library of magazines and newspapers, like Zinio or PressReader or Readly, which would be updated with latest issues before the aircraft takes off, everything sync'd up to a server on the aircraft, and then you could download them from the server over WiFi during the flight. There's plenty of reading time on an 18 - 20 hour flight and maybe there could be a free trial subscription to those services as part of the deal.

More privacy for First Suites by adding doors and/or higher walls, and slightly wider bed along with larger bathrooms. The current A380 First Suites on QF have a lot of wasted space. Practical amenity kits, including a comb or basic hairbrush, as the facial mist and other fluff are of little consequence if I leave the plane with scruffy bed hair (I'm over having to bring my own comb). A bigger / better TV screen would help instead of the poor quality current ones that often hang crooked (or wobble) on the bracket arm. Look at the EK TV screens for how to do it properly, given you can spend a lot of time watching it on long haul flights.

If the seat count in First drops by a few to make a little bit more room, that's OK by me, although may reduce redemption / upgrade opportunities for some.

Speaking of which, how can the crew keep the toilets clean during these long-haul flights? Should there be a designated cleaning member on board?

Space to get up and walk or stand, where you can grab a snack or a sandwich and a drink. A footrest that's a companion seat. Enough storage space for all the bits and bobs you may need during the flight. Loads of accessible power points and USBs. A moveable tray table where you can leave your laptop whilst going to the loo.

A comfy bed. Ideally, distinct bed zone and sleeping zone. Totally non-realistic but I can dream. :)

SQ/Etihad-style suites are simply not necessary (not to mention there are documented design flaws with both airlines' suite concepts... Etihad's suites have chairs with very little recline, and SQ's suites have an awkward position when one is trying to eat one's meals).

Being realistic: we shouldn't expect the world's most eye-gougingly opulent product. It doesn't have to be, as long as it is private and comfortable. Blinging things up adds unnecessary weight.

EK,SG,UA etc. etc. have been offering it for literally years...surly not too much to ask or will it be turned off the moment the aircraft crosses the coastline..

Am I being unrealistic ? Judging by their current reluctance / inability to roll it out to international travellers maybe I am.

Having said that, I know some airlines (eg Lufthansa) have tried a “real bed” beside a seat, rather than just a convertible seat. That would be really transformative.

Menus and food progressing further towards wellbeing meals, having 'wake up' and 'go to sleep' meals. I don't know if the physics and plausibility of it works (not an engineer), but looking at some form of hyperbaric mask for sleep time to help improve quality of sleep. Having some form of common space where at certain times of the flight a cabin crew will conduct a stretching/tai chi session to help move and maintain circulation.

Basically consult the top sporting clubs in the US and EU for how they carry out recovery for their players with super heavy travel schedules and develop those on a plane.

I think the critical elements to making 20-22 hours work well are privacy, comfort, the ability to structure the time the way you want to, fresh and healthy F&B options, a change of scenery away from your seat, great IFE and connectivity. So for business class I’d say:

- high speed WiFi - good enough to stream your own content on Netflix

- great on-board IFE options and screen

It would probably end up similar to the Q-Suites with a few extra touches...

A really good bed, comfortable, not lumpy, wide and space for your feet.

Decent sized toilets so you don't have to perform yoga to use them for changing.

Socialisation space, the EK and QR bars are perfect.

Dine on demand - goes without saying.

However, having said all that - I'm still not a fan of ultra long flights and now even avoid the 14hr DOH-MEL flights and choose to do the 8 + 8hr DOH-SIN-MEL with a break in SIN, but that is me...

For a 20+ hour flight, the body is prone to dehydration, jet-lag, and hypoxia.

Reduced seat-pitch increases passengers stress, muscle pain and many other issues.

Large, comfortable and updated aircraft toilets are a basic need.

A Coffee Shop, serving high-quality coffee, teas, and fruit juice, in all cabins are perfect for a healthy stretch of the body

Dine on demand with healthy, vegan and light options.

Meditation, stretching excercise videos and educational podcasts. Wifi.

Moisturising masks and amnesties including deodorant. Compression socks. PJs and slippers. This will get a lot of dislikes: limit Alcohol as it’s the worst when flying.

- A social space, VA do this really well for both Y+ and J on a 777. I really enjoy this space, I've spent hours here and met some really great people. If they can do it, it shouldn't be too hard on a 787 or similar.

- Privacy door

- Practical Ameneties kit incl Moister Mask

- Dine on demand, with a comprehensive menu

- Quality IFE offerings. I've noticed airlines have started to let IFE slide as more people start to BYO. Continue with recent movies that haven't made it to purchase yet. I really enjoyed this about flying getting to see some movies that just left (or still in) cinemas.

- No foot cubby hole! Or at least make this fit even people with large feet.

First Class - 6 suites ala Emirates new 777, but, the weight needs to be taken into account so combining Emirates layout with Air France curtains (noise cancelling curtains?) may achieve the perfect balance. The current Business suite is fine - but Qantas would be wise to widen the seat and increase the pitch, a lightweight sliding door could be added for that exclusive feel and a switching the config to include 'double bed' options would be nice.

As for the soft product - as many have mentioned the amenity kits need some serious 'luxing' up.

But ultimately for me, personally, it's time for a conscious uncoupling with Mr Perry. It's been like 20 years - time for us to see other people ok. (the food is honestly dreadful in all classes, and yes i have flown all classes recently) Let's be honest to QF as they are in serious denial if they think the food is 'best in class'

I am not sure why QF would also pursue First rather than an enhanced Business. My preference would be to have an enclosed seat with sliding doors, so that each can control their own light levels and peacefulness. With a discreet dine on demand service supplied to each without disturbing others.

Also a separate bar area like those on Euro trains, which you could either stand or sit, and be served a meal/snack there rather than in your seat.

A stand-up bar area for milling and stretching that’s separate from galley or toilet spaces. It doesn’t need seats - the idea is to not be sitting for a while.

The curtain idea could be very good if done well and would reduce unnecessary weight from additional walls/bulkheads.

F/C seat/bed that is wide enough to sleep in different positions.

No narrow foot wells that are not big enough for feet.

The companion dining seat option.

Dine on demand.

Arrival lounge access for showering/freshening up.

I know this is to be restricted to J and F only, but W needs better pitch and some rows of an Economy-X/Plus for payment.

Reading the pieces ahead it won't be economically viable. Dont forget Business is where the money is made in the industry not first and certainly not in cattle class. Forget other than Express freight on these services to get the available weight allocated to the pax cabin.

Given a few comments that upgrading B-class might make F-class less viable, why not do away with F-class - and improve B-class? Wonder if this mght also help save a bit of weight.

Also, if such a long flight in Y-class is uninviting, why not do away with low-margin and squeezed Y-class altogether?

So, have only B-class and PY-class - and make each better, more spacious, and yes: more + spacious toilets.

First step would be dine on demand ( or 2-3 different option, ie. stay in departing time zone, arrival time zone or just evenly spaced out). Once they work out who is dining when, they can adjust the mood lighting directly over the seat to suit that specific pax.

It may not be perfect but with LEDs, the right lens to give the right intensity and the right colour/material on the walls/seats. I am sure they can almost light up individual seats without affecting the neighbouring passenger much.

-More than a very cheap pencil case amenity kit. Mouthwash and deodorant for J and F

-Proper spacious lavs stocked with practical amenities

-More sophisticated cabin crew service

-Imagination employed to create a more modern sophisticated cabin in both F and J. Enough with boring, bland & less is more.

-Proper hot / cold hand towels - not off cut paper thin rags.

-Proper cloth hand drying towels in lavs not lint everywhere cheap paper towels

-Lavs cleaned and up kept throughout flight

-Properly sized PJ's!

-Car service for all non-stop ports at both ends

- Proper First Class cabin, food, alcohol and service. No more deluxe business class style 'First' considering most expensive F fares in industry are charged by Qantas!

More toilets.

More toilets.

Simply must have more toilets... I'd read all the complaints about the 787 on PER/LHR sector, and thought surely it can't be that bad just one, but then I experienced it last month, and it's a joke! Was rarely available.

Make the layout the same as Emirates' business class. Have high quality 'cocoons' and a bar area available for everyone to socialise. It's well established by the travelling public that Emirates has the best long distance formula by using A380 and the bar facility.

I reckon the most comfortable set-up considering what's available, would be A350 aircraft with and Emirates business class layout.

- Big foot cubby

- more toilets than 787

- dine on demand

- proper toilet paper rolls, not just tissues.

- thick hand towels for drying hands in toilets, not just tissues

- tissues as well!

- compartments for shoes and laptops so can get set up before departure

- classy sophisticated QR style cabin service

- Room in the toilets to get changed into PJs without bashing the walls!

- space to place your clothes while getting changed so they're not placed on the wet dirty toilet floor! Or a dedicated change room separate.

- more privacy between middle seats, divider to close the whole space

Will keep dreaming!!!

- a dedicated space for lounging, standing, walking, bar etc like EK. You can’t expect people to stay seated for 20 hours plus it is not healthy and you don’t want any health impacts on such a long flight!

- a gym like space downstairs where you can do some body weight exercises, stretching, yoga etc.

- flat bed berths downstairs, obviously you can’t have a lie flat bed for every passenger. That would be dream unless supersonic travel gets there first. It would likely be for premium, Y etc. who wish to pay, sort of like a time based service. The reality is that some people will need this to travel that long and will be prepared to pay for it vs the trade off of a stopover.

- you have to increase pitch some on Y etc. Now I know everybody will say what about the economics, well make it as far as the economics will allow, even a small increase will make a difference to how people feel cooped up in a pressurised metal tube for 20 hours!

- same goes with amenities kits, need to bump this up a notch and focus on wellness and hydration components

- dine on demand - goes without saying, those that can sleep and manage to ‘escape’ a portion of such a long haul should not be woken up because it suits the flight crew, people need coping mechanisms and being able to influence your bodyclock/timing helps. The wellness food is great, the concept needs expanding/continuing

- premium in its current format needs the legroom issue fixed plain and simple

- IFE needs improved in terms of content and screen size, wifi will help but the trend towards BYO entertainment doesn’t work so well when your battery won’t last 20 hours on whatever device you happen to have

- for the front end, F needs to be a suite of some sort, the quality of the J bed needs improving substantially, width/length, so these pax aren’t wanting to, or need to, use the flat beds under the cabin

- the shower concept is interesting but the reality is that water = weight and weight = poor economics so cater for this by ensuring the departure lounge has showers and have an arrival lounge the same. You simply just don’t want a space with smelly humans all packed together for such a long period, it will just get a bit feral

- Loos - the same goes for the smell, cleanliness etc. these have to be kept in tip top condition, over such a long flight they will get heavily used and nothing says chaos like smelly, blocked, non working toilets

- larger toilets as well unless there is a dry change space with more room for everybody changing onto PJ’s, some will be happy to sit in their jeans for 20 plus hours, many will not

There is probably other small details but these are the major ones that spring to me. If QF would like to get a pax focus group together then count me in as I definitely fit in the ‘there is no way you are getting me in that seat with those conditions for 20 hours’ club. The PER-LON in Y is a classic example.

If you genuinally want to capture the whole market and be transformative then these are the sorts of changes you will have to make, you are pushing the limits of human endurance and the same old let’s cram those in that will take the chance and hope for the best approach just won’t work IMHO.

The other feature (slightly OT I acknowledge) is more business and first class seats and fewer economy/PE! Surely part of the premium offer here is the fact that you don’t have to stop, so why not just tie that into premium seats.

I can definitely see the benefit of a future where A380 are almost exclusively economy for hub to hub travel complemented by regional jets (330/737 etc) and ULR jets are almost exclusively F/J and used for point to point.

In the absence of an enclose business suite for each passenger, it would be lovely to be able to change from clothes into PJs and back again in something other than a toilet. Bare feet and a toilet that has been in service for 16 hours is not a happy combo.

• more and better spacial toilets which cater for 22 hours in the air - I mean for 40 years I have avoided as much as possible ablutions in the air!
• best experiences I ever had was late 60s early 70s with PanAm's original 747s with a separate dining facility where you could dine upstairs with other passengers - could this be done in cargo hold area - a bit like an ocean liner?
• for that distance the Qatar style of business class doors are essential IMHO the cabin will be abuzz at all hours - regimented time goes out the door - space becomes paramount to comfort and the Qatar centre 4 pods into one space for a family is great design.

oh yes and the Entertainment system must outdo Emirates' ICE system. Might not worry about suites in F and privacy screens in J as 20+ hours in the air will get lonely.

* A separate change area, with a washbasin for cleaning teeth, mirror for makeup, tissues, lotions etc. but NO toilet. Changing in the toilets, even in F, just sucks.

* Super comfy lie-flat seats/beds a la your home recliner (I can sleep in that, but not the aircraft seats, even in F). Perhaps use breathable leather (not fake leather as you'll stick to it), which has to be easier to keep clean than fabric

* Space -- more headroom when getting out of your seat (though overhead lockers that are too high don't work for those who are already height-challenged), decent size storage bins for gear/toiletries bag etc., ease of access to carry-on bag without disturbing others (so quiet, soft-closing overhead bins). Perhaps do away with the shared overhead bins in F altogether and have a suite that includes your own storage locker for your stuff -- hanger for jacket, place for carry-on, etc.

* More toilets and larger (if no dedicated change/wash room), and spotlessly clean; perhaps some downstairs?

* Separate the toilet area(s) from the galley

* Lounge access (with showers) on arrival

* Larger size PJs

* Space to stretch, move around, socialise (if you choose)

* If rooms, consider sound-proof curtains if there is such a thing -- less weight than walls, but still offer privacy and help block out other noises from the cabin

All this assumes excellent service, excellent food (please, no more weeds touted as 'salad'), and spotlessly clean in all areas (don't look too closely at the gaps around the seat in F... it's pretty gross)

This will leave premium cabins quiet 🤫 , for sleeping.

Night owls free to make some noise.

Is there a little 'pie in the sky' (pun intended) when considering 20+ hours in a little 787, projected from 2022? Maybe a 777 can travel the same routes for that time, but the A380 is a no go.

I've never travelled in the first class cabin so can't comment on the facilities needed, but in the small 787 where will be the space for this section additional to business, premium economy and economy? Will there be a cut back in numbers of seats in these sections, and if so in which one(s)?

My concern is the very low 'flat beds' in business. When fully reclined they're too close to the floor. The miniscule dust that's raised as people walk down the aisles passengers have to breathe. It's not healthy so maybe some sort of mask could be part of the wash pack. The 'beds' are also uncomfortable for people, mainly men, over 6 feet tall. Have flat beds, but when fully reclined, have them higher off the floor.

Again, in the little 787, where will there be space for a bar and/or entertainment/socialising area if there's the introduction of a first class cabin? Dare I be so bold as to comment that with all these additions, how profitable will these 20+ hour routes be?

I'm a huge fan of Qantas, travel +150K miles per year mainly QF and normally in Business Class, so my comments below are definitely from the constructive camp :)

Food suitable for ultra-long flights.

Area for socialising,

More consistency in service standards.

Ensuring that other customers are not disturbed by dine on demand service.

As someone who has to treat and prevent a DVT recurring, enough space in the hold to enable 10 minute active flexing/movement exercise without disturbing sleepers. My doctors say 10 minutes vigorous movement every three to four hours is the best preventive. Meanwhile, Clexane injections still required.

The present seat in A330/787-9 is very flat and unsupportive as a seat, and does not have the midrift upturn that the A380 Classic flat sleeper has. (Cost reduction!) While the lack of working space and storage in the Marc Newson design is a huge disadvantage, the lack of any sculpting and placement of the current head support in A330 and 787 for a 183cm passenger is really very poor ergonomics indeed. Not even particularly good for Computer work. There is no sculpting at all. The seat belt to wear throughout the flight should not be sash, but option of waist only as per early A330 Business.
I have no complaint about Qantas service; a 21 hour flight will be tough for all - passengers and crew alike. Just make sure the best sleepers are for flying crew so they really can rest.

The seats should be easily changeable from sleeping to sitting position, and offer trendellenburg position. No matress is OK, if there is a matress it should be easy to remove, store and retrieve it, same applies to blankets and pillows.

A pillow menu would be good, most pillows are too big for use as a headrest in. The sitting position.

1. Ensure every decisionmaker has travelled on J and F on the current top 5 market offerings.

2. Maximise the main deck seating arrangements to get the required returns and move to best in class seat designs

a. Find designs that improve privacy without too much additional weight

b. Avoid foot cubbies totally

c. Power/USB ports put in places where I don’t have to be a contortionist to reach them or have a cord draped across the width/length of my space – i.e. so I can go to the toilet without stowing.

3. Move to the lower deck the "space consuming" and “movement” areas & larger or non-uniform sized things:

a. Modules (centrally located to reduce curvature and create walking aisles either side for exercise) such as additional slightly larger toilets and also 2-3 pyjama changing rooms with handbasin that can also be used as baby changing areas for all classes

b. Definitely more toilets, the longer the flight, the less the ability to “hold on until arrival”

c. Social Area – perhaps less emphasis on alcohol – more a stand up “coffee shop with juices, fruit & snacks”

d. Self help snacks and drinks cabinet similar to A380 to reduce staff loading and give reason for passengers to “move”

e. A couple of pull-up handles to do a few loadbearing lifts/exercises as well as walking

f. Adequate sound proofing between decks

g. Adequate sound proofing between the individual classes on main deck

4. Continue evolution of current good work on food research for long distance flights

a. Add dine on demand for premium classes

b. Ditch 3 course meal mentality and introduce a varied list of healthy smaller sized offerings. If you are hungry ask for additional dishes.

c. Change lead chef and get away from tasteless bowls of leaves purporting to be a “salad”

5. Water is too heavy for onboard showers, so provide arrival lounges where premium passengers can shower, shave, press/change their clothes, etc before heading off.

6. Crew structure rethink to allow for dedicated cleaning staff throughout the flight.

7. Pressure the engineers to improve even more the humidity of the air and changeover cycles to reduce fatigue and jet-lag without significantly driving up fuel costs

8. Supply headsets that are able to drown out cabin noise but at the same time be very comfortable to wear while sleeping/resting in various positions